21st Nov, 2009

Some words to Calvary Church’s “TTG” group

The folks at Calvary Today are getting nasty comments from supposed Calvary church members. Interestingly, many of these commentators are “anonymous”. Look, folks, if you want to be taken seriously don’t hide behind an anon name, okay? It only shows that you guys are a bunch of chickens.

Here are some choice comments:

Many of us in Calvary has been very very patient with you - TTGs. all your shouting and screaming in AGM/EGM we still have kept quiet. Your actions and attitudes during church service, we still kept quiet. All your write-ups in CT and BC we still said nothing and hope you will come to your senses.

This Sunday onwards, you TTG will be dragged out of the church and thrown out. - Anonymous

Bloody moron! You win, Christianity loses! Judgment will come to the house of God! - Anonymous

I am very saddened by your (foolish) action by publishing our church issues in the newspaper.

It’s sad to see what damage you can cause to the House of God. - Think it Wisely

The comments from CT supporters are as heated, and I want to say two things:
a) It’s very natural to react in anger, especially since you’re being attacked by friends you thought were true brothers and sisters in Christ
b) It will do you no good to respond to these people, however, as they are blinded by fear that their world is being rocked and worship of the church as an organisation. Instead of responding in kind, say levelly: I note your grievience. But this is still our stance. Thank you for your input. (It’ll drive them absolutely wild, though :P)

I’ve been where many CT supporters are now. In fact, today I uploaded a number of my old posts on spiritual abuse so that somehow, it can help them. Some words of encouragement and advice:

1. If you’re in Calvary Church, and you’re reeling from the “war”, please read the Resources on Spiritual Abuse that I’ve compiled. You will find out that many organisations “self protect” by attacking those who dare to change the status quo.

2. Try to remove yourself “emotionally” and be a cultural anthropologist if you can. Note that this is herd behaviour at its peak. Don’t take in too much negativity.

3. Allow yourself to feel the gamut of emotions that you have. Very often, in our urge to be as Christian as possible, we hide our anger and grief while trying to appear understanding or “Christian”. Cry, tear up tissues, stomp your feet and scream at the skies if you want. Many also will tell you not to do these things because it’s not Christian. Say thanks but no thanks and talk to someone who understands. I would recommend talk to someone who has gone through this before. I’m here to talk to anyone if they need to - please email me at messychristian@gmail.com

4. Still, while you allow yourself to feel angry, do not allow yourself to sink into bitterness. That will destroy you spiritually and emotionally. To do so, you may have to do something that is very, very difficult: You have to forgive them. What? You can’t be serious! Unfortunately, I am. That’s one of the most important lessons I learnt when I came out of my bad church experience. Forgiveness is the key to your healing.

5. Brace yourself - you may not see the justice you desire in the time that you want. Unfortunate, but true. God, unfortunately for some of us, has a different timing when it comes to these things. He’s infinitely patient, always giving chances for his children to repent because He loves them so. But discipline does come for some, like Ted Haggard, who was forced out of his church and now struggles to earn a living. Should we gloat that they’ve gotten their come uppance? Being human we probably would, but remember, we too are sinners and are no ‘better’.

Here are some preachers who didn’t practise what they preached

Responses

Here are some further resources for those who seek to recover and find redemption in this sad state of affairs:

Recovering from Churches that Abuse
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/958-recovering-from-churches-that-abuse-online-book

Churches that Abuse
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/716-churches-that-abuse-online-book

Thanks for encouraging the group of TTG ppl..they really do need all the prayer and support they can get. It’s tough being the so called whistle blower but if that’s the only way to right a wrong, it has to be done.
A word of advice to those christians tat are not from calvary, pls do not throw stones at the TTG if you do NOT know the full story. Many of us common ex-calvary members have been through hell due to the action of PG and the deacons who are our so called shepherds just because we wanted more truth and transparency. If you know who PG really is and how he acts behind closed doors, you will know he is not a man of God.

Hi There,

Been viewing your articles and comments. Not sure why but in current mentality any rebellious acts are seemed to be taken as standing for truth against repressive organisation.

Come on messychristian, you comment about anonymous but you yourself stay anon…. nearer to hipopotamus are we?

These TTG people lack patience and the virtues of a saint of God… there are being run by a bunch of secular people without any touch with biblical truth.

I think you’re the real person who lacks patience and Godly character, read your blog as well and the words you use to describe the TTG are so evil and crude, totally unlike what a christian should say and act.
so anything that calls for more truth and transparency is called a rebellious act is it? wow, no wonder a church like Calvary is in such a state. the more ppl we have in churches that are like you, whoever you are, the worse the moral standards of a church will become. so sad. so truly sad.

See Post ‘I was wrong about PG’
http://calvaritesunity.blogspot.com/

I Was Wrong about PG but now I see.

another blog that talks abt PG

http://rachelloo.blogspot.com/2008/01/religious-leaders-must-say-no-to.html

Did I mention any where… at any time that I’m from Calvry?

hi there, now stand.

i don’t know if you notice, but messychristian has been having this blog for a long long time. unlike you, who just started the blog for the purpose of ‘defending’ Prince Guneratnam.

messychristian is NOT hiding behind any monikers like you, calvary unity and the like (who are all cowards, really). he easily posts up pictures of himself - BECAUSE he’s an outsider.

now if you so boldly proclaim that you are not from calvary, then why are you scared to reveal who you are?!?!

your comments make me laugh

Well I suppose it’s natural that my blog has become a second battleground of sorts for the whole Calvary thing. Quite amused that pro-Calvary propagandists have descended here though. ;)

Now Stand - unfortunately, if you know the nature of my blog, and the readers of my blog, your rhetoric about “rebellion” in the church would be greeted with much amusement. Our allegience is only to the Lord Jesus, and no man - or church, for that matter - should stand between us. The misconception that the pastor is God’s proxy is not only wrong but clearly unbiblical. In the New Testament, we’re a priesthood of believers. The pastor is merely our brother in Christ, but just with a different function in the body of Christ.

To those who are angry at the antics of Now Stand and PG supporters, calm down. These things are very normal in spiritually abusive churches. The best thing to do now is to focus on God, and to always practise forgiveness and love no matter how terribly difficult it is. However, don’t beat up yourself if you can’t do it at first. I coudn’t either. But you must hang on to your determination never to sink into hate and bitterness. That’s the wrong road to take.

Take it from me who has gone down that road before.

Cheers and love,
Liz

Hi Liz,

I’m sorry I could not find any of your details in your website… with these old eyes of mine.

I fully undertand how you feel and all your bitterness and anger.. that has cause you to never attend church anymore. It is normal for any human being (even a child would put on all the defensive gear once hurt to ensure that it would not happen again). It is sad that you did not come across the kind of elders that I have in my younger days. I choose to follow their example. Like Paul said…. follow me as I follow Christ.

It is sad that you have taken to only believe certain portion of the bible and discard the rest, selective theology is demonic. As we know even the devil and demons read the bible and they also practice selective theology. Even the homosexuals practice selective theology.

I hope and pray that you will have a “saul on the road to damascus” exprience, where your darkness will be filled with a brilliant light from heaven and a voice….

Saul … Saul Why Do You Persecute ME

Liz… Liz Why Do You Persecute ME.

May God rickly bless you …Liz

Liz Why Do You Persecute ME.
Gee. You’re kinda scary.

I’m definitely not persecuting you, merely telling you my point of view. You obviously come from an authoritarian form of Christianity which I don’t prescribe to, and which I think we *shouldn’t* prescribe to.

Also, you don’t really know who I am and why I’m not in church etc, so I’d like it kindly for you to stop speculating about my spiritual life, thank you very much.

And anyway, this really isn’t about me or you; I think we should support the Calvarites in the struggle they’re going through. Calling those who call out for truth and transparency “rebels” is rather biased and misguided.

Why not sit down and talk with them instead of calling them flat out liars and rebels?

so very hypocritical of Now Stand to ask the writer of this blog why she is persecuting God or Now Stand when Now Stand is the one persecuting those who ask for truth and transparency and accountability. Now Stand, I suggest you first kneel down on yr knees and ask God for forgiveness for labelling the TTG as rebels when in fact they are just trying to stand for what is right. God bless.

Yups it confirms that the pro-Prince Guneratnam followers are firmly standing on selective theology.

truly weird

Now Stand, from what I can see you don’t seem to have any constructive statements, and prefer to comment (or rather, attack) a person’s attributes and personality. In Internet speak, this is called flaming. Please offer more logical and constructive arguments and refrain from personal attacks. If not, I’m not going to entertain your comments any more.

ex-calvarite, although I sympathise with your situation, the same rule applies to you. :) Let’s keep an even head despite this intense time, okay?

Cheers..

Okay, will try…sorry.. :)

now that messychristian has revealed herself, it looks like nowstand has cornered himself/herself into shame because he/she does not dare to reveal who she is - all this based on the first statement he/she made for this post

I don’t attend Calvary, but many of those I have been reaching out to have been poisoned by this. Many years of hard work have been lost. They are happy to stay as muslims and buddhists and point to the hristian message as being worthless.

And over what…a misunderstanding over money and a disagreement over how a particular church is alleged to have been run. The wise thing todo is to move on. Find a church you are happy with and learn whatever lessons you want to learn.

Splitting a church and taking them to a secular court will damage ALL denominations in this country, and possibly remove financial privileges from church denominations not involved in this furore.

Some of these TTG people try to convince me of their position, and I can only say I was left with an impression of deep hatred as their main motive. They may be right, but their motives are hellish.

I think I should add a little more to this.

The entire Bible is a Missions Mandate. Most obviously stated in the Great Commission. Jesus harshest words were directed at the self righteous, the religious who are not interested in anything other than their own goals.

God promises that he will judge all of us. The man and woman of faith should trust him, and get on with the task at hand.

Having worked with most of the major denominations, and in various cross cultural missions, I can say I have never found a perfect disciple, not a perfect minister, nor a perfect church.

However God blesses those who do His work. The fields are white for harvest. We need to evaluate our own actions to determine whether we are moving in Gods direction, or whether we are putting stumbling blocks that will stumble non-believers from hearing and responding to the gospel.

Calvary Church has had a great witness for the Lord. Many have been saved through its ministry. I know the pastor is not perfect. I have worked along side its people on occasion. Yet they have a desire to reach out and change this nation for good.

This is certainly not a “means justifies the ends affair. However until they break out the cool aide ala Jim Jones, their fruit would suggest they are seeking to put Gods kingdom first.

the senior pastor of calvary church is not interested in reaching out and changing the nation for good….where did you hear that? he is only in this for the money. do you ever see calvary church helping the other smaller churches in malaysia or asia? nope. because the senior pastor only goes to rich countries like USA and Europe and give church offering to rich churches over there in order that he gains popularity and get all the glory. he even wants to start a church in India for the rich ppl…hv u ever heard of a true man of God wanting to start a church for the rich ppl? what is his motive behind it? money.

PRAY FOR GUIDANCE AND IF IT IS GOD

On 6-12-2009, I attended service at Ampang Calvary Church. I Spiritually discern that the HOLY Spirit is MISSING in the worship service ! To me, the Calvary Saga fulfilled a 2004 prophecy . Anyone care to comment my views.

Addressing the comment by Missionary to Muslims.

You said, “Some of these TTG people try to convince me of their position, and I can only say I was left with an impression of deep hatred as their main motive. They may be right, but their motives are hellish.”

Just because you claim to be a missionary does not prove that you are one. By the language you use, you already reveal who you really are.

CT has checked with many TTG people and none of them has spoken to any “missionary to muslims”. They also do not “try to convince” people especially if they “do not attend Calvary” like yourself. Bluntly put, if you are not a Calvarite, it really makes no difference to their cause. The TTG people are busy people and have no time to go around “trying to convince” people who cannot help. We suggest that you tell everyone here the names of those TTG people who tried to convince you.

The real TTG people want to know and they have expressed that if indeed “hatred is their motive” and if God so reveal to them that it is true, they will seek forgiveness from God and maybe say sorry to you too for trying to convince you.

If you are not comfortable to do so here openly then drop a note to CT or Liz here via email. If you can’t then our advise to you is, “Don’t tell lies and don’t bear false testimonies”.

Have a Blessed Christmas Everyone!

Interestingly as both an observer and once cal active members in the late 1980’s.do i laughed about it , or mock ourselves..all of the members gave money time efforts willing ..on the promise of the good lord..via thru pg. all these years do we classified ourselves as faithful or ignorant..indifferent to the funds used.every body was playing the nice guys we shake hands laughed call each other bro sis n goody goody address..or sunday good behaviour.
when things turn sour, even with evidence..it is not because pg was damn good marketer..it is us been plain dumb.we all followed the herd ..n the herd was leading somewhere that time.we proudly announce cc brand , ccc great mission ..we started to get excited on charity work , fund raising. we were proud of the calvary brand.
now the fan hit the shit..what do we do? jump at pg ? his cronies? that is plain dumb of us.we should examine our self..we were so caught up with the hype of being the most branded church in damansara height.
let be honest.
today we are all screwed..pg did a great con..or whatever word ..laugh about it..we lost to a better player.
that is growing up.
whats the future of cc is no longer yr concern,that attachment does not hold water u had yr good times u have some not so good times.

lets not be sour .those who intend to stay..is not yr concern,they have their own discernment..after all most of us do read ..
laugh about it..a year from now…u looked back..how silly we were..

life is now.

i been there.

keep the case closed .to be conned is bad enough ..to be laughed at , thats double jeopardy

we attended calvary satellite church d p…we felt alot of pressure each time the pastors drop by our home on the pretext of visitation..usually it start with prayers and light talk…and then will talk about ccc..we be encouraged to make some pledges ..and instant cash or cheque donation.being new christians,we obeyed.
my mum , 1st sis, 2nd sis, 2nd brother n myself committed about 3000 a month.we been doing this since 2005.

our family is totally shocked about these funds ..and the stop work order…my mum is very sick..if the church cant raise the money to pay back to the bank…my mum is scare she been sued because she is a member.
this has caused alot of problems for our family.
pls can some one advise..will we be sued?

God is in control here. As Jesus cracked the whip and made a clean sweep and got rid of the “den of thieves” in the Temple of God, He will bring this to pass in CC. For Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. This does not mean CC as a Church will fall from grace. I believe it will emerge stronger after this, as the Church is not bricks and mortars, but the people, meaning the children of God. Let the clean sweep take place and we will see a transformed CC. After all, Jesus is the God of 2nd, 3rd, 4th and many many chances. Let’s all forgive and be led by the Holy Spirit to speak and act in one accord - as the Church of Jesus Christ was meant to be. Let go and let God!

from my observation.,we have a great bunch of writers here very specialize in bible verses quoting..let god take charge, god is in control…holy spirit will reveal….seemed to me..that was always the big big words spoken by yr pastors..
the good lord spoke to me.,….god has annointed us to be his chosen people to bulid a new house of the lord…does that sound so familar?
today we are all screwed with a big shit hitting the fan..
that poor sister jenny mother is fight dead she be sued ? just been a contributor n member to cc..the family run chaos @
here .we are quoting bible verses to “shiok sendiri”
where is the afformation actions?

grow up mmyy…and others…
cut the verses crap other then praying..what are u doing to do for jenny family ..her mother ?

affirmation action?
cit the preaching we do it on sunday in cell groups! i want tp preach go preach somewhere.this blog is to discuss ideas…how we all got suck in ?

genesis easier then said…we cant be playing dead ducks n act spiritual //we were in many ways years been subdued to submit ourselves .we were techinically cows milked all year round…the ct should get more testimonies from other members,,,ex members written interviewed n published it..many of us been sidelined..meanwhile . is pg earning taxable? is cc a legal entity?

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